PACT UPDATE in the House, unfinished business...

[sgreger1]

We need snus delivery reform.

My proposal will allow all Americans to have affordable snus from a variety of vendors by establishing a competitive "snus exchange" where people can go and compare prices amongst different vendors. Also on the docket is a proposal for a public option, in which the government will sell snus at comparable market prices in an attempt to stimulate competition in the industry.

//zomg!!1one!! gubmint trying to tayk ov`er our snus!


Really though someone should set up a snus exchange where it lists all the current prices from all the vendors, so that everyone knows who's selling their favorite brands at the lowest price. The mere existence of the exchange will force vendors to be more conscious about thier prices I think.

[justintempler]

So, how is this gonna work out Justin? If you order from a swedish website, are they supposed to add the tax to you´r purchase and then hand it over to ol´uncle Sam across the pond??? Sounds really sketchy to me and enforcing this will be whacked out beyond belief, I never heard of a swedish company paying taxes to a country they don´t actaully operate in...........

Whacked out is right. I don't see too many companies willing to jump through the hoops.

The people with US warehouses and inventories saw this coming.
Swedish Match, GetSnus, Northerner, and the Vogel brothers.

This opens up a whole new business oppourtunity for someone like UPS:
They already act as "import brokers" they could offer a new service collecting taxes for foreign companies wanting to do business in the states.

You don't have to tell me how twisted it is, I'm just seeing it for what it is.

[sgreger1]

I'm still a little confused Justin, perhaps you can enlighten me here. Why are they passing this. Is this one of those "stop kids from getting tobacco" things, or is it just an attempt to collect taxes that are lawfully due on tobacco products?

I'm not really getting the aim of this bill and frankly I havn't read any of it. If it's about taxes, why not just make sure the companies all charge the appropriate taxes for the product? What spurred them to decide to change the system?

[LaZeR]

Thank you Snusdog. So what, we have what, 4 sane members of Snuson left????

Nothing depresses me more than reading the stupid panic being posted by so many folks on this thread. It's not the end of the world folks. It is not gonna stop you from getting your snus. Just deal with it already.

Pardon my French, but with this kind of naiveness, your going to find your self peddling BJ's on the corner in 6 months to a year to be able to afford obtaining any of your tobaccos to support your nicotine dependence.

:lol:

[NorSnuser]

Thank you Snusdog. So what, we have what, 4 sane members of Snuson left????

Nothing depresses me more than reading the stupid panic being posted by so many folks on this thread. It's not the end of the world folks. It is not gonna stop you from getting your snus. Just deal with it already.

Well I'm certainly not sane :wink: , but I am trying to be somewhat reasonable. Nobody on this board likes PACT, but now we have to deal with it. My local supply of General is being hit too as my state raised tobacco taxes and it is putting local stores (even the old ones) out of business.

My concern is also how this will work between the Feds and the States. Four or so states are already listed on some sites as prohibiting Swedish snus. I hope this isn't a trend. But now that the states can collect tobacco tax revenue because of PACT I wonder if they'll quickly change their laws back.

And it almost seems as if it might be impossible for foreign companies to comply. No foreign country is going to agree to let U.S. government agencies inspect their facilities and demand paperwork.

Anyway, I never meant this thread to imply that PACT wouldn't pass. I was only hoping it was going to be delayed a bit. I expected it to pass and I expect Obama to gleefully and gloatingly sign it. :cry:

[snupy]

I'm not really getting the aim of this bill

It began with the scummy NY politicians. They have raised the tax on cigarettes several times since the early '00s, such that now a pack of cigs in NY costs $8. NY citizens then began ordering cigs online, so that they could get a carton for $20-$25 and not have to pay NY absurd cig taxes. This really pissed off the NY scumbucket politicians, who have no interest in free markets and believe themselves to be 'owed' exorbitant tobacco taxes.

Congress first responded to this last year in 4/09 by raising taxes on ryo baccys over 2000%, such that a pound of ryo baccy which used to cost $12 went up to between $40-$50, to cut out the ryo afficianados who were avoiding high cig taxes using ryo methods and bring the price of ryo cigs into line with locally taxed cigs.

PACT will now insure those companies who sell cigs or baccy over the net, will collect tobacco taxes due in the states of the residents who purchase from them. Thus, there will no longer be an economic incentive to escape baccy taxes by purchasing cigs or baccy over the net. Whether you buy cigs or baccy over the net, or buy from your local convenience store, you can no longer escape the exorbitant baccy taxes charged by the states.

My response to this is to say fvck them and I already have baccy seeds sprouting to prove exactly that.

[sgreger1]

I'm not really getting the aim of this bill

It began with the scummy NY politicians. They have raised the tax on cigarettes several times since the early '00s, such that now a pack of cigs in NY costs $8. NY citizens then began ordering cigs online, so that they could get a carton for $20-$25 and not have to pay NY absurd cig taxes. This really pissed off the NY scumbucket politicians, who have no interest in free markets and believe themselves to be 'owed' exorbitant tobacco taxes.

Congress first responded to this last year in 4/09 by raising taxes on ryo baccys over 2000%, such that a pound of ryo baccy which used to cost $12 went up to between $40-$50, to cut out the ryo afficianados who were avoiding high cig taxes using ryo methods.

PACT will now insure those companies who sell cigs or baccy over the net, will collect tobacco taxes due in the states of the residents who purchase from them. Thus, there will no longer be an economic incentive to escape baccy taxes by purchasing cigs or baccy over the net. Whether you buy cigs or baccy over the net, or buy from your local convenience store, you can no longer escape the exorbitant baccy taxes charged by the states.

My response to this is to say fvck them and I already have baccy seeds sprouting to prove exactly that.

Well... isn't that dandy. I don't get places like NY and CA really. I mean taxes work if they are reasonable, but at some point they decided to use taxes to control the market and stem competition and it's done nothing but bankrupt us for more than a decade. I just don't get it. Tax everyone making money, tax everyone buying something, raise taxes on different groups so that there is no way to use competition to avoid paying rediculous prices.

Why? If they would spend the money right they wouldn't need to keep raising taxes. After a certain point, the taxes get so high that it deters people from buying things or living in certain states and the tax revenue will go down over time.



Heres a question: Is the vendor going to pay the tax upon purchasing, or is (as I assume) the consumer going to pay for it at the point of sale. What's to stop me from buying a huge amount from a local dealer I could drive to (without reciepts) and then vending it out to people on snuson and sharing the profit with the vendor to bypass the taxes? Anyone know the details of how they are controlling this?

[snupy]

Why? If they would spend the money right they wouldn't need to keep raising taxes.

That's part of the lie about cig taxes anyway. They are sold to the public as 'won't someone PLEASE think of the children.' The cig taxes are then diverted into the general fund to pay whatever bills of the state the state chooses. The non-tobacco users end up with a welfare mentality regarding cig taxes as a result. Of course they will be for higher tobacco taxes, since THEY don't have to pay them.

After a certain point, the taxes get so high that it deters people from buying things or living in certain states and the tax revenue will go down over time.

And thugs no longer knock convenience stores over for cash. Why would they when 10 cartons of cigarettes are now worth $800?

Heres a question: Is the vendor going to pay the tax upon purchasing, or is (as I assume) the consumer going to pay for it at the point of sale.

I don't know, but I would guess it would be like sales tax. The vendor collects it on each sale, then forwards it to the states within a certain time frame, whether it be quarterly or whatever.

What's to stop me from buying a huge amount from a local dealer I could drive to (without reciepts) and then vending it out to people on snuson and sharing the profit with the vendor to bypass the taxes? Anyone know the details of how they are controlling this?

If you get caught, you would be charged with a felony perhaps? I am not saying that is the case, but isn't it already a felony for cig bootleggers to bootleg?

I am hoping organized crime moves in, such that you can drive up to a street corner, pass them some cash and get your baccy. Given the actual cost of baccy, it seems like the criminals would be fools not to participate in a black market.

[sgreger1]

I am hoping organized crime moves in, such that you can drive up to a street corner, pass them some cash and get your baccy. Given the actual cost of baccy, it seems like the criminals would be fools not to participate in a black market.

Lol all excelent points, but especially this last one. If this continues on the same road, it will become prohibitavely expensive for the average lower middle class consumer (largest purchasers of tobacco) and criminals will start bootlegging it.

When i lived in NC it was like that with Alcohol. You can only buy hard liquor up untill like 8 o clcok or something and it could only be purchased at 1 store called the ABC store or something, not sure if the state owned it or if they were just the only ones licensed to sell. But people in the ghetto would sell it to you at any time of day for a slightly higher price.

Same will happen with tobacco I hope. Because as we know from mary j etc, they can't really enforce streetcorner deals that only involve small quantities passing from hand to hand.

Sad that it has to be that way though.

[Snusdog]

So let’s review

This week our legislators have:

1. Legislated a potential black market into existence

2. Facilitated the close of many tax paying job generating businesses during one of the most severe recession in recent history

3. Reduced the long term tax revenue from tobacco sales by pricing tobacco beyond reach

4. Screwed the Indians yet once again (what Manhattan wasn’t enough)

5. And insured one of the greatest costs burdens on the health care industry (cigarette related illnesses) continues because the safer more viable options of snus and snuff is greatly restricted— All this while simultaneously fighting for “health care reform and cost reduction”

Brilliant!!!!


:shock:

:evil:

.

[sgreger1]

So let’s review

[5. And insured one of the greatest costs burdens on the health care industry (cigarette related illnesses) continues because the safer more viable options of snus and snuff is greatly restricted— All this while simultaneously fighting for “health care reform and cost reduction”
.

This x1,000. I cannot believe they would actually legislate that cigarettes are acceptable, but safe methods of risk reduction are not. Smoking crack is good, smoking pot needs to be banned. Same thing, makes no sense and plays off imaginary preconcieved notions that the public may/may not have.

They want to tax sodas now because it will affect healthcare costs, yet cigarettes, arguably one of the single largest contributors to health problems, goes untouched. Converting to snus would be like finding a cure for cancer in a way in that you could reduce cancer and other cig related ailments in nearly the entire population (the currently smokes), while still being able to make a profit by taxing it. I don't see how this is not win/win, yet snus keeps getting shafted and thrown under the blanket term of being "oral/smokeless tobacco".

[tom502]

[snupy]

They want to tax sodas now

I wish they would. It would serve the non-tobacco users right for supporting tobacco tax increases year after year. They stood by and did nothing when tobacco taxes were raised 'for our own good' and 'for the children.' I would love to see them get a taste of their own medicine, quite frankly, but then, I only drink diet sodas.

I don't see how this is not win/win, yet snus keeps getting shafted and thrown under the blanket term of being "oral/smokeless tobacco".

Because you do not fully understand the scam. We are told tobacco taxes must increase to cover the healthcare costs cigarettes generate. Yet, the studies prove the highest dollar health care consumers are those who live the longest. In other words, smoking leads to early death, which means CHEAPER lifetime healthcare costs as opposed to the healthy and long lived. Additionally, taxpayers save all manner of costs when smokers die an early death, including having to pay out little to no dollars in social security payments, etc.

If we were serious about constructing tax policy to reduce healthcare costs, then we would increase taxes on fresh vegetables, meats, dairy grains, gym memberships, etc, while reducing taxes or offering tax credits for cigarettes, junk food, sugary drinks, etc. Early deaths saves healthcare costs and social security payments for the taxpayers.

[snupy]

Absolutely not. Name one Republican that voted against PACT.

[justintempler]

I'm still a little confused Justin, perhaps you can enlighten me here. Why are they passing this. Is this one of those "stop kids from getting tobacco" things, or is it just an attempt to collect taxes that are lawfully due on tobacco products?

I'm not really getting the aim of this bill and frankly I havn't read any of it. If it's about taxes, why not just make sure the companies all charge the appropriate taxes for the product? What spurred them to decide to change the system?

You know the answer to that, it's about the taxes.

They're after the tax revenue from the billions of untaxed cigarettes coming from the Indian reservations, the Ukraine and China.



They just want a quick and dirty way to fix the immediate problem and to hell with the consequences.