PACT: A most regrettable liaison

[Snusdog]

Deleated my post because it made no contribution to the discussion

dog 8)

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[Toque Snuff]

Justintempler
I hope this helps.

If you have bought from us you will have seen the customs declaration CN22 with the official Harmonized Tariff number 2403.99.2040 and that the CN22 declaration is signed and dated by an employee of our company. We fully comply with all the legislation of the US govt and customs.

“Furthermore, any person who receives tobacco products by mail or commercial delivery service must pay applicable excise tax and duties, unless eligible for an exemption (e.g. personal use by returning traveller).”

This is down to the individual who imports and should be declared in your annual tax return.

As of 04:16:10 The US Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade bureau of the US department of the Treasury states:

“There is currently no Federal law that prohibits Internet tobacco product sales. However, there is also no exemption from Federal laws for tobacco products ordered over the Internet. Therefore, consumers who order tobacco products to be shipped to them from outside the United States are not exempt from payment of Federal excise tax and customs duties due on these products when imported.”

I am positive all our customers declare their taxes fully and are good law abiding citizens.

“When an individual in the USA orders from overseas and has product shipped to him by USPS, that individual is acting as his own importer. and must get any required federal licenses, permits , or register with the FTC, FDA etc.”

This is true and anyone importing for business or as an individual “must get any required federal licenses, permits , or register with the FTC, FDA etc.” Required is the important word here as at present an individual importing for their own consumption is not required to obtain and cannot obtain a “federal licenses, permits , or register with the FTC, FDA etc." these permits are for the tobacco trade.

“Under the new legislation there is no mechanism for consumers to get all the necessary licenses and permits so he can abide by the law.” You are correct, consumers are not required to and do not require these permits as they are for the tobacco trade only.

Thus if we register our snuff in the USA we would have to comply with the Pact Act and this would restrict our freedom to legally sell in the USA. This is why American internet operations are now moving to the UK.

[Kvlt]

I don't understand how the US government can tax products from another country. Makes no sense really. Organized theft.

[justintempler]

Justintempler
I hope this helps.

If you have bought from us you will have seen the customs declaration CN22 with the official Harmonized Tariff number 2403.99.2040 and that the CN22 declaration is signed and dated by an employee of our company. We fully comply with all the legislation of the US govt and customs....

Yes you do, currently, and for the time being you are in full compliance.

United States Code, Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 83, covers laws governing the Post Office

:!: Existing law :!:
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 83 > § 1692
Foreign mail as United States mail
Every foreign mail, while being transported across the territory of the United States under authority of law, is mail of the United States, and any depredation thereon, or offense in respect thereto, shall be punishable as though it were United States mail.

There is no International vs Domestic distinction :!:


PACT modifies TITLE 18 > PART 1> CHAPTER 83 by the followng...

SEC. 3. TREATMENT OF CIGARETTES AND SMOKELESS TOBACCO AS NONMAILABLE MATTER.

(a) In General- Chapter 83 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 1716D the following:

‘Sec. 1716E. Tobacco products as nonmailable.... blah blah blah

The problem enters when the "List of articles prohibited as imports (or in transit) or admitted conditionally" gets updated by The US Postmaster to the Universal Postal Union, to reflect the latest regulations from the PACT act and FDA rules. Then your shipments will no longer be in compliance.

[Toque Snuff]

I think it's going to be interesting to see how it pans out.

What is non-mailable in the US is still mailable elsewhere. I will be complying with the laws of my country.

As far as I'm aware the US cannot extradite a citizen of another country if that citizen is doing something that is legal in their country. The rest of the world would take a pretty dim view if America tried to impose its laws on another country.

The US tried that back in prohibition when my great grandfather exported Whisky and Gin to the Kennedys. I believe they came all the way to Scotland and all they got was a police escort back to their ship.

[Snusdog]

OK here is my take

I too believe that Roderick is correct for now

However, after reading the Postmaster’s response, it seems fairly certain that they will update the postal restrictions making tobacco (snuff and snus included) ineligible for transport by the USPS.

However, tobacco will still be legal for UPS and others to transport.

It is clear that merchants in the USA will have to collect all taxes at the point of sale.

However, for sales originating in foreign countries, it also seems fairly certain (unless I have missed something in all that I have read) that the existing method of tax collection will remain in place. You will be required to report it on you taxes.

The reason I believe this has to do in part with the fact that (a) The USA cannot require fogiegn merchant to collect USA taxes nor would it be feacable to do so nor would it be wise (what is good for the goose is good for the gander- I’m not sure this is a trend the US would want to begin EVEN IF IT COULD) (b) no money has been allotted towards the implementation of a new system (c) to my memory there is no mention of carriers collecting taxes (only merchants) (d) there is nothing that addresses the current system of collection for foreign trade to over turn it.

Thus in the end, it seems that it will be pretty much business as usual.

1. Overseas merchants will still be able to ship non-forbidden items and will have less hassle and expense than US based merchants

2. Consumers will have to pay a bit more on shipping. Thus for many this will mean not less tobacco but rather less orders (ordering in bulk verses a few cans every so often)

3. US consumers will still be required to declarer their tobacco purchases on their taxes

One further point: it seems that carriers cannot legally charge a individual buyer a brokerage fee since by law the individual is himself a broker and under full compliance of existing laws. (It may prove handy to keep the pertinent law cited above on file in case you need it later).

Furthermore, any “brokerage fee” that is not stated at the terms of sale cannot be legally assessed after the sale. The final sale is a contract and cannot be further stipulated after it is finalized. Thus any brokerage charge I receive will go right into the garbage and await the 2nd and 3rd notice to join it.

I think Tom and David made a good move. I also feel that Northerner would be well served to keep all its existing options open (both USA and Swedish sales).

I do not think this will be a great hassle for overseas merchants (beyond whatever current hassle there is in dealing with UPS- I don’t see much changing on that end).

Thus I do not see it being worth anyone’s time to challenge or to try and buck the system. I might be wrong but at present this is how it seems to be leaning


Daisy dog 8)

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[lxskllr]

I liked your deleted response better ;^)

[Snusdog]

I do not see it being worth anyone’s time to challenge or to try and buck the system. I might be wrong but at present this is how it seems to be leaning.

Let me clarify my statement above. It will not be worth challenging in regards to getting your snus shipped to the USA. You will still be able to do so with little changing besides the carrier.

However, I do believe that this law represents a slow erosion in our rights, that if left unchallenged, will eventually lead to drastic and real restrictions on snuff and snus (So Frank baby I hope you have the guest room ready for me)

[Snusdog]

I liked your deleted response better ;^)

Here it is. It just seemed to be wind and fury without much use. so I deleated it

This whole matter is insidiously allusive.

First the language of the Pact Act deals exclusively with “interstate trade” and defines it as such.

Then it appears that every one, including the Postmaster General, understands that when they said “interstate sales” they really meant “international sales”. So I guess when they say I do not need a passport to travel across state lines they really mean across state lines to say Tibet.

Next we hear of a UPC exemption except nobody can quite put their finger on it.

Then we have a 1400 page paper on tobacco restrictions, except it deals exclusively with cigarettes (and not snus or snuff). Regardless, we are able to draw conclusions about snuff and snus from those pages.

It is Descartes’ epistemic conflation x 10

I think therefore I am
I think it is snowing therefore it is snowing

Epistemology is never the basis for ontology but rather its derivative

(A 5 year old child should have been able to shut Rene up ……….but alas, Western thought has followed that rabbit down the hole for the last 300 years.)

And here again we are playing with the Hermeneutics of seemingtobe

And so we deal with ink blot legislation- what do you see….I see a zebra……then a zebra it is

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
- Lewis Carroll


dog 8)

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[lxskllr]

Maybe not much use, but I love some good cynicism. It more directly reflects my personality :^D