Washington Lawyer about FDA and Pact Act

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  • Northerner.com
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 98

    Washington Lawyer about FDA and Pact Act

    This answer came from our lawyer in Washington yesterday...

    Question 1: can private US citizens order such tobacco products from EU/Europe and have them imported to the US for private consumption?

    FDA currently does not require foreign tobacco manufacturers to register their establishments and submit product lists. While section 905(h) of the FFDCA requires foreign establishments to register “under regulations promulgated by the Secretary,” and section 905(i)(1) requires foreign registrants to file product lists, FDA has not promulgated foreign establishment registration regulations. Moreover, in its November 2009 Guidance for Industry: Registration and Product Listing for Owners and Operators of Domestic Tobacco Product Establishments, FDA specifically stated that an importer who does not own or operate a domestic establishment is not subject to the establishment registration or product listing requirements. Accordingly, a foreign manufacturer who does not own or operate a domestic establishment currently does not have to register or submit a product list. Such a company could sell tobacco products through delivery sales directly to U.S. citizens.

    Question 2: do these tobacco orders/products fall under the PACT Act?

    Regardless of whether the foreign manufacturer has registered with or submitted a product list to FDA, the parties to an overseas internet sale will have to comply with the PACT Act, which amended the Jenkins Act. Section 2A(d)(1) of the Jenkins Act, as amended by the PACT Act, prohibits a delivery seller from delivering cigarettes or smokeless tobacco to a common carrier (e.g., UPS) before the applicable state and local excise taxes have been paid and the required stamps or other indicia of payment have been applied to the product. Section 2A(d)(2) may exempt a delivery seller from liability if the state or local government of the place where the product is to be delivered requires or otherwise permits delivery sellers to collect excise taxes directly from consumers and remit the funds to the state or local government. The exemption only applies if the delivery seller actually collects and remits these taxes in accordance with state or local law.

    Question 3: who is responsible for paying the Federal Tobacco tax, the local state tax and the local sales tax for overseas orders - the private US citizen or the EU/European company selling the tobacco product?

    Whether the consumer will pay the state or local tax directly to the state or local government will depend on whether the state or local government requires or permits delivery sellers to collect and remit these taxes. If the state or local government requires it, the seller will collect and remit the taxes. If the state or local government permits it, the seller will have a choice. Otherwise, the consumer will have to pay, in which case the state government could use the delivery seller’s monthly reports to ensure compliance.

    The consumer is responsible for the federal excise tax. According to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau’s (“TTB’s”) March 2009 FAQs, “. . . [C]onsumers who order tobacco products to be shipped to them from outside the United States are not exempt from payment of Federal excise tax and customs duties due on these products when imported.” See also 15 U.S.C. § 5703(a)(1) (providing that the tobacco product “importer” is liable for federal tobacco excise taxes); § 5702(k) (defining “importer” as a person to whom foreign “nontaxpaid tobacco products” are shipped). We have made several calls to TTB to determine the logistics for consumer payment of the federal excise tax in this situation, and we are awaiting a return call from a specialist on tobacco excise tax issues. We will update you if the phone call yields more useful information.


    If you need more specific information on tax-related issues, we could consult with a tax attorney who specializes in this area. In the meantime, please let us know if our responses have raised additional questions for you.

    Thank you but we are a bit confused, doesn't Pact Act require the seller to always be responsible for paying the state tobacco tax and the sales tax, whether or not it's a foreign company selling into the US from outside the US or a domestic company?

    Section 2A(a) of the amended act requires delivery sellers to comply with all state and local requirements as though the sales occurred in the state or local government unit to which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are delivered. These requirements include, for example, licensing and taxes. States require distributors to pay excise taxes on these products prior to distribution, and some states, like California, require distributors to purchase stamps to affix to the packages to prove that the tax has been paid. See California Cigarette Distributor Licensing and Stamp Act Guide (2007). Thus, under section 2A(d), the delivery sellers would have to buy stamps and affix them to any California shipments. Note that some smaller local government units also tax tobacco products (e.g., New York City).

    The act also contemplates that a state or local government could permit or require delivery sellers to collect these excise taxes at the time of purchase and later remit them to the government rather than paying them before shipment. If permitted but not required to do so, sellers would have the choice between the two options. If the seller does not pay or collect these taxes from the consumer, the consumer will be liable for the taxes, and the seller will have violated the PACT Act.
  • tom502
    Member
    • Feb 2009
    • 8985

    #2
    Interesting, but kinda confusing lawyer-speak.

    One thing regarding FDA I was not clear on is this statement:
    "FDA currently does not require foreign tobacco manufacturers to register their establishments and submit product lists."

    It says "currently", so does this mean right now? I don't think the new FDA law is in effect "right now", so, will this change?

    Comment

    • shikitohno
      Member
      • Jul 2009
      • 1156

      #3
      I suppose that means we could import Skruf and all the other goodies from the European Warehouse, right?

      Comment

      • tom502
        Member
        • Feb 2009
        • 8985

        #4
        But what irks me, I guess, in not understanding it all, is, IF EU shops do not need FDA OK, and do not have to deal with US taxes, then why even get the FDA ok, or open a US base, when US customers, if this is right, can just order whatever they want from an EU site, just as before. I guess it'd still have to through UPS though. But considering the new taxes, and unavailablity of some brands, it might be just easier, and cheaper, overall, to just order from an EU site, and get your Skruf, and not deal with the tax. Or am I totally wrong?

        Comment

        • Darwin
          Member
          • Mar 2010
          • 1372

          #5
          If the above analysis is correct then we will not be able to buy abroad and simply have it shipped here. The relevant passage:

          "Regardless of whether the foreign manufacturer has registered with or submitted a product list to FDA, the parties to an overseas internet sale will have to comply with the PACT Act, which amended the Jenkins Act. Section 2A(d)(1) of the Jenkins Act, as amended by the PACT Act, prohibits a delivery seller from delivering cigarettes or smokeless tobacco to a common carrier (e.g., UPS) before the applicable state and local excise taxes have been paid and the required stamps or other indicia of payment have been applied to the product."

          Whether all that will be practicably enforceable is another matter and would at least require a significant increase in customs employees which is unlikely since the total shipped weight and/or the total number of packages containing tobacco is an extremely tiny fraction of overall customs traffic. It will be a crapshoot to get delivery of unapproved snus or snuff without the heavy hand of customs coming down on the customer and although the likelihood of having a package confiscated may be very small it will not be zero.

          Comment

          • LaZeR
            Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 3994

            #6
            Originally posted by tom502 View Post
            But what irks me, I guess, in not understanding it all, is, IF EU shops do not need FDA OK, and do not have to deal with US taxes, then why even get the FDA ok, or open a US base, when US customers, if this is right, can just order whatever they want from an EU site, just as before. I guess it'd still have to through UPS though. But considering the new taxes, and unavailablity of some brands, it might be just easier, and cheaper, overall, to just order from an EU site, and get your Skruf, and not deal with the tax. Or am I totally wrong?
            I thought Skruf brand was in the clear and submitting to the FDA for availability w/o question anyhoo and it was the other popular "Oden's" that we were going to be on the fence with?

            Comment

            • tom502
              Member
              • Feb 2009
              • 8985

              #7
              Last I read, Skruf had not gotten FDA ok yet, I read it at snuscentral article, I think about the rising prices. But just because they haven't now, doesn't mean they won't later. I think it was Skruf, if memory serves me.

              Comment

              • Snusdog
                Member
                • Jun 2008
                • 6752

                #8
                Thank you but we are a bit confused, doesn't Pact Act require the seller to always be responsible for paying the state tobacco tax and the sales tax, whether or not it's a foreign company selling into the US from outside the US or a domestic company?

                Section 2A(a) of the amended act requires delivery sellers to comply with all state and local requirements as though the sales occurred in the state or local government unit to which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are delivered. These requirements include, for example, licensing and taxes. States require distributors to pay excise taxes on these products prior to distribution, and some states, like California, require distributors to purchase stamps to affix to the packages to prove that the tax has been paid. See California Cigarette Distributor Licensing and Stamp Act Guide (2007). Thus, under section 2A(d), the delivery sellers would have to buy stamps and affix them to any California shipments. Note that some smaller local government units also tax tobacco products (e.g., New York City).
                Most of this is exactly what I have been saying for the last month or so with one exception. Concerning the part I have quoted above the lawyers are dead wrong. The section quoted assumes domestic interstate sellers.

                For sales occurring within the USA the seller will be required to collect the state taxes as if the sale occurred in the state to which the product is being shipped. NO FOREIGN SELLER WILL BE REQUIRED TO COLLECT USA TAXES!! Such an inane idea is beyond the jurisdiction of the USA Congress to require or enforce.

                For foreign sales, the buyer will be required to pay the taxes even as he is today.
                When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

                Comment

                • LaZeR
                  Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 3994

                  #9
                  Originally posted by tom502 View Post
                  last i read, skruf had not gotten fda ok yet, i read it at snuscentral article, i think about the rising prices. But just because they haven't now, doesn't mean they won't later. I think it was skruf, if memory serves me.
                  i seriously can"t handle this!!!

                  Comment

                  • tom502
                    Member
                    • Feb 2009
                    • 8985

                    #10
                    Stock up now!

                    Comment

                    • LaZeR
                      Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 3994

                      #11
                      Originally posted by tom502 View Post
                      Stock up now!
                      Click image for larger version

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                      Too much on my CC's now. Wtf!!! Last I heard, sKruf was officially in the clear. DAMNIT!.!.!

                      Comment

                      • bipolarbear1968
                        Member
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 1074

                        #12
                        Wtf!!! Last I heard, sKruf was officially in the clear.
                        That's less competition for Marlboro, Camels and other garbage we are forced to choose from.

                        Greed will run itself in...

                        Comment

                        • bipolarbear1968
                          Member
                          • Mar 2010
                          • 1074

                          #13
                          I can't wait to see the lawsuits fly once this law sets in.

                          Comment

                          • Snusdog
                            Member
                            • Jun 2008
                            • 6752

                            #14
                            Laz this is all good news. What Franks Lawyers told him was

                            1. Foreign sellers will not be required to register their product with the FDA

                            2. These products will still be legal to mail (just no USPS)

                            3. Domestic sellers will be required to collect state taxes (except for those states that wave this requirement)

                            4. Taxes on Foreign sales will be the responsibility of the buyer to report and pay, just as they are today (this is the point where I disagreed in my above post with Franks Lawyers and think they assumed foreign sales to be included in regulations clearly limited to international sales by the language of the law). They think foreign merchants will be required to collect USA state sales taxes..............and they are wrong.

                            Thus Laz Skruff will be readily available at a bit higher shipping cost. No more. No less
                            When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

                            Comment

                            • Snusdog
                              Member
                              • Jun 2008
                              • 6752

                              #15
                              Not to beat a dead horse but listen to the section of the the PACT ACT that Franks Lawyers cited.


                              SEC. 2A. DELIVERY SALES.
                              ‘(a) In General- With respect to delivery sales into a specific State and place, each delivery seller shall comply with……

                              ‘(1) the shipping requirements set forth in subsection (b);

                              ‘(2) the recordkeeping requirements set forth in subsection (c);


                              ‘(3) all State, local, tribal, and other laws generally applicable to sales of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco as if the delivery sales occurred entirely within the specific State and place, including laws imposing--

                              `(A) excise taxes;

                              ‘(B) licensing and tax-stamping requirements;

                              ‘(C) restrictions on sales to minors; and

                              ‘(D) other payment obligations or legal requirements relating to the sale, distribution, or delivery of cigarettes or smokeless
                              tobacco; and

                              ‘(4) the tax collection requirements set forth in subsection (d).


                              Now listen to the definition section of the PACT Law that explains the meaning of the terms used in section 2A. Remember the above regulations only apply to sales made "into a State or Place" Notice then how the PACT Act defines "into a State" and thus limits tax collection to domestic/interstate sales only.


                              ‘(B) INTO A STATE, PLACE, OR LOCALITY- A sale, shipment, or transfer of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco that is made in interstate commerce, as defined in this paragraph, shall be deemed to have been made into the State, place, or locality in which such cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are delivered.

                              Frank's Lawyers mistakingly neglected the limitation imposed by the language of the law and thus wrongly assumed it to include foreign commerce.

                              Foreign merchants will not be required to collect taxes for US States.
                              When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

                              Comment

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