Angry with the EU!

[XMan]

Grrrr...

I have an urge to howl about this.

Picture the scene. I log on to an online snus vendor based in Sweden, and add a couple of rolls and a few taster cans cans to the basket. I look at the order total (usually expressed in US$) and do rough conversion to my currency in my head, thinking the price is resonable. I then scroll down the page and have to endure something incredibly frustrating.

You see, you have to tick a box saying where the snus will be delivered to. As I'm in the EU I obviously have to check the 'Inside the EU' box, and feel a wave of frustration and depression as the PRICE VIRTUALLY DOUBLES due to EU taxes

Not only do they ban the sale of snus in the EU (except Sweden), they still find a way hit you if you get it legitimately.

So annoying...

Rant over

[jackolantern]

What exactly does the EU do for everyone in Europe that is so important to warrant one of the highest sales tax rates in any industrialized country on Earth? I could not imagine buying a car there.

[bearcat87]

The EU has been a good thing for the economies of those countries apart of it. Though it is a step to further globalization. The EU started in 1952 as a coal and steel community with Belgium, Netherlands, and Luxemburg as the first countries. Fostering free trade and labor movement is main goal of the union. All products for members of the EU have common external tariffs on goods imported. Right now all of Eastern Europe is wanting to join. Unfortunately for them Germany, the major economic power house of the EU does not want East Europe to join for fear of devaluing the Euro. The EU has experienced good economic growth but unknown to most is that they too had to bailout banks that totaled almost 2.5 trillion. Italy needed the least amount of bailout.

A few notable items about the EU....

Older members of the EU get about 28,000 Euros a year for farming plus what they make off their harvest. Newer Eastern European countries such as Poland and Slovenia only get 1/4 of the agricultural subsidies allotted to older members.

The UK is against the Euro but is a member.

Sweden is a member but didn't switch due to their currently strong economy. Though they are very tied to the Euro.

To become a member of the EU these conditions must be met....

low inflation
low government spending
HIGH TAXES (to answer jacks's question. Large government surplus is considered desirable to the EU, enough to alienate some of their citizens)

The EU differs from the NAFTA because EU is about free trade as well as close government ties while NAFTA is strictly about free trade.

I'm a Geography/GIS major focusing on Europe incase you were wondering about my credibility.

[Viking]

Just to add a few facts. Denmark too is a member of the EU since 1973, though we blocked the creation of the Union in 1992, and we are not a member of the monetary union, that is - we don't use the euro like the UK. One can discuss endlessly the pros and cons regarding the EU. However good results some EU states achieved over time, we in Denmark have existed as a nation state for about 1000 years, and our flexicurity/welfare model is not a result of the EU, but of a specific historical and social/tribal mode of existence. Snus is allowed here, but not popular at all. Portion Snus is banned, but you can buy it from Sweden online.
And we have the same problem - a tax is added, but still very reasonable compared to for ex cigarettes!
Snuff (nasal) from England is not taxed, and one can buy retail from the UK at very low rates!
The most serious problem with the EU is not economical to us in Denmark. It is the slowly hollowing out of our sovereignty as a nation! More and more decisions are being made in the EU parliament bypassing the Danish Folketing! This is our greatest concern. Never mind the economics - we have been losing capital from that deal from the start! What's so annoying is the postulate of the EU that goods can flow freely within the EU - not so! Purchases made in Ireland is taxed insanely, and Snus from Sweden too, though not so highly. Anyway, glad to be here - I'm also on SnuffHouse. Oh and I have an M Div in Greek Orthodox Theology - and am now majoring in History and European Studies.

[bearcat87]

I really appreciate your input Viking! Denmark is also a "silent" partner of the EU. The free trade associated with the EU is not so much for consumer purchased goods but for the inputs necessary for industry to function i.e. coal, metal, raw materials, minerals and so fourth. I agree that the EU is beneficial for some countries but is beginning to erode the cultural foundations that are unique to areas and have survived for centuries.

[Judge Faust]

Overall, great analysis, except for this part:

Right now all of Eastern Europe is wanting to join.

Pretty much all E.European nations that actually WANTED to join the EU (with the exception of Ukraine) HAVE joined it.

This leaves Russia and Belarus, and I assure you that neither of them has any interest at all in joining this merry circus.

[TexDis]

Just wait until the self-perpetuating oligarchy of the EU finally decides to bring in Turkey. That's when the real fireworks are going to start.

[squeezyjohn]

Xman - welcome - and I know - it's really annoying the way all the tax is added at the end of the process, I'd far rather see what a can will really cost me when I click on it. Of course you can work that out but it's a bit anal to do so after the event.

So just be content with the fact that it's still cheaper (per amount of nicotine going in your system) than fags with UK taxes, it's much better for you, infinitely better for those around you, and you're incredibly cool doing something about it which not many others in the UK are doing at the moment.

As for the EU follow up argument - I don't really want to get caught up in SnusOn politics as I've seen where that leads! People often have huge opinions about things regardless of their actual experience of them. All I will say is that (snus taxing aside) - since the formation of the precursors to the EU following WW2 - western/central Europe has never seen such a long period of stability - people working towards some sort of common goal always acts as a social adhesive and I don't believe that it has had nearly as much of a detrimental effect on England's soul as something like the globalization phenomenon has.

... must ... stop ... writing ... any ... more

[bearcat87]

Although France mainly and a few others want Turkey to become part of the EU I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Turkey doesn't allow the freedom of its people, financial markets, and has some pretty screwy tax policy. If the proposed European Constitution is enacted I forsee every European country becoming a full member. The U.S. better watch out when that happens. Hell we better watch out now with our big stimulus package of which less than 50 billion is going to be used to do anything that could possibly boost our economy. Not to mention we are printing enormous amounts of money without any gold standard.

[bearcat87]

people working towards some sort of common goal always acts as a social adhesive and I don't believe that it has had nearly as much of a detrimental effect on England's soul as something like the globalization phenomenon has.

... must ... stop ... writing ... any ... more

No please write more! If you don't want to post I would like to hear about it in a PM. This is what I am studying currently and it is hard to get the opinions/facts from the people considering I am 6,000 miles away from it all.

As for England's soul..... you fellas have been making your own path for quite some time now. I don't expect or want that to change.

[squeezyjohn]

Thanks for the backup, Bearcat - but I value this forum for it's snus related comeradery - I've been here a while and I know that if I go off on one about what I really think politically then more than one ignorant gun-toting right-wing american bully will come and wipe his arse with me. Not only will that mean I am less likely to come here and talk about snus which I am really in to - I also have far better things to do with my time than getting into that kind of argument online when I know I am right already!

:lol:

[bearcat87]

Thanks for the backup, Bearcat - but I value this forum for it's snus related comeradery - I've been here a while and I know that if I go off on one about what I really think politically then more than one ignorant gun-toting right-wing american bully will come and wipe his arse with me. Not only will that mean I am less likely to come here and talk about snus which I am really in to - I also have far better things to do with my time than getting into that kind of argument online when I know I am right already!

:lol:

well said!

[Sal1000us]

Just wait until the self-perpetuating oligarchy of the EU finally decides to bring in Turkey. That's when the real fireworks are going to start.

I think this is a strategic long-term plan by the EU which will eventually make the EU more prosperous and powerful. Experts say letting a country that is 99 percent Muslim into Europe will send a powerful message to the Arab and Muslim worlds. Previous British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw had said Last year, “By welcoming Turkey, we will demonstrate that Western and Islamic cultures can thrive together as partners in the modern world.” Turkey is already an important European trading partner, and its population (70 mil, I think)would be both a vast market for European goods and a ready labor force. In addition, Turkey occupies perhaps the most strategic location at the crossroads of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East (also borders with Syria, Iraq, Iran, Armenia & Georgia, Russia's backyard and a stone's throw from Lebanon & Israel). Its cooperation would aid the EU on everything from the economic challenges posed from the rise of India and China to fighting terrorism, addressing international crime, etc. I don't believe EU is doing this for humanitarian reasons.

[Judge Faust]

I think this is a strategic long-term plan by the EU which will eventually make the EU more prosperous and powerful. Experts say letting a country that is 99 percent Muslim into Europe will send a powerful message to the Arab and Muslim worlds. Previous British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw had said Last year, “By welcoming Turkey, we will demonstrate that Western and Islamic cultures can thrive together as partners in the modern world.” Turkey is already an important European trading partner, and its population (70 mil, I think)would be both a vast market for European goods and a ready labor force. In addition, Turkey occupies perhaps the most strategic location at the crossroads of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East (also borders with Syria, Iraq, Iran, Armenia & Georgia, Russia's backyard and a stone's throw from Lebanon & Israel). Its cooperation would aid the EU on everything from the economic challenges posed from the rise of India and China to fighting terrorism, addressing international crime, etc. I don't believe EU is doing this for humanitarian reasons.

I wouldn't hold my breath.

The elephant in the room is that the EU is a white, Christian conglomerate. Although its members will advance any number of theories as to why Turkey should not be admitted, the real one is that it is a nation of darker-skinned Muslims...

Overall, of course, the EU has been beneficial for most of its members, if only in economic terms. The problem is that it is inherently chaotic and far too federalist in structure. As a result, it can decide to regulate tobacco products and lopsided vegetables (yes, really), but cannot for the life of it draft its own constitution. This might prove to be a problem, for obvious reasons.

Ultimately, the EU is economic rather than political in nature. Its real reason for existing seems to be to counteract the growing dominance of China, India, and Russia, the hope being that Western/Central Europe doesn't fall behind in the 21st century (as the US irreversibly has).

[TexDis]

I've been here a while and I know that if I go off on one about what I really think politically then more than one ignorant gun-toting right-wing american bully will come and wipe his arse with me.

The only bullying or insult I see on this thread is yours above.

I'll only say this in response: if an American is true right-wing and toting guns, then I would say he is hardly ignorant, but rather informed.

Resurgent ethnic nationalism will be the way of the future for Europe.