Panic Order from Washington State

[geeeeoffff]

Yes, but that website isn't an officer of the law. Entrapment rules really only apply to law enforcement, since the idea is to keep cops from inviting people to break the law and arresting them to look better. I can't think of any situation where a corporation/store/business could be charged with such crimes except one. If there was a website that advertised tax free cigarettes and sent your info to the cops whenever they got an order, maybe.

i'm not sure you understand. the website itself is offering to illegally ship tobacco to washington state. i think it can be compared to some guy walking around saying "Hey, want some crack?"

so it wouldnt' be entrapment for a cop to order illegal tobacco and then prosecute.

[shikitohno]

Yeah, now that I've had a good sleep, it makes sense. Still, one could always fall back to the difficulty of prosecuting out-of-state/country companies.

[geeeeoffff]

yeah, it won't be easy, but it must be possible since some alcohol and tobacco sites won't ship to certain states.

:-|

not really sure what they can do though.

[geeeeoffff]

so.. which shops are entirely in sweden? Northerner has a warehouse in the states so that makes me think they might have to obey a subpoena.

what about buysnus? it appears to be completely in sweden

[tom502]

Roo-
So, did your orders arrive with no problems?

[VBSnus]

So let me see how this would be broken down...

"A person may not ship tobacco products, other than cigars, purchased by mail or through the Internet to anyone in Washington other than a licensed wholesaler or retailer. A person may not, with knowledge, provide substantial assistance to someone violating this tobacco shipping restriction."

In the state of WA, a person is defined as:

(1) The term "person" may be construed to include the United States, this state, or any state or territory, or any public or private corporation or limited liability company, as well as an individual.

So a "person" can be the country, WA state, any other state, or any other territory (does that include Sweden?). It also includes public or private corporations or LLCs. Oh yeah, and people.

Given:
person = northerner
tobacco product = snus
purchased via = internet

Northerner may not ship snus bought on the internet to anyone in Washington other than a licensed wholesaler or retailer. Northerner may not, with knowledge, provide substantial assistance to someone violating this tobacco shipping restriction.

Or "Sweden" can't. "Buysnus" can't. The United States may not with knowledge provide assistance. But wait, there's more...I just bought Snus from getsnus.com which was shipped via UPS with a packing slip telling the contents. That means UPS had knowledge, and provided substantial assistance to someone violating (had I lived in Washington).

So here's the final verdict:

1. Companies can't ship stuff to you while you live in WA
2. If a company knows what's in the package, they can't provide shipping to you

So you need a company that 1) doesn't know the WA law, and 2) ships discreetly

EDIT, NOTE: I get it now. WA state can't regulate what other states, countries, and companies outside of WA can do due to jurisdiction (rendering the first part of this mostly bunk), so they're putting the emphasis on shipping, since they CAN regulate carriers who operate within WA. Sneaky.

NOTE 2: At least you won't be classified as a felon, just the shipper or assister.

NOTE 3: This is interesting..."(3) The attorney general may seek an injunction in superior court to restrain a threatened or actual violation of subsection (1) of this section and to compel compliance with subsection (1) of this section."...so they're basically saying the attorney general can petition in a federal court to have other states/territories follow this law.

[geeeeoffff]

1. i'm pretty sure someone in one state can pursue legal action against someone in another state. especially if it's criminal. It's more difficult and expensive but it's doable.

2. Given what has been going on in sweden with regards to the pirate bay, pursuing a company in sweden would be prohibitively expensive.

so..

northerner- i'm nervous about since they have a warehouse in the USA, so they might have to comply with a subpoena for customers.

buysnus appears to be wholly in sweden, so that seems like a safer bet.

also, it seems like the person who orders, if caught, is up for felony charges for "providing substantial assistance".

edit: swedishsnus.com seems like it'd be safe too. but i know swedish match is working its way into the states.

[VBSnus]

That would be the big question in court. Is paying for an order "providing assistance". I think if this were meant to cover purchasing, it would specifically say that anyone purchasing is guilty. No where in the entire revised bill does it say that.

Also, a person can pursue legal action against a person, but a state can't write laws regulating companies in other states or countries. But there's where it says in there that the attorney general can go before a higher court to push companies in other states if they feel there is a violation or threat of violation.

[geeeeoffff]

That would be the big question in court. Is paying for an order "providing assistance". I think if this were meant to cover purchasing, it would specifically say that anyone purchasing is guilty. No where in the entire revised bill does it say that.

Also, a person can pursue legal action against a person, but a state can't write laws regulating companies in other states or countries. But there's where it says in there that the attorney general can go before a higher court to push companies in other states if they feel there is a violation or threat of violation.

yeah... it isn't specific, and that question might be decided in court, but i really don't want to even end up in court. even if i won it would cost a lot of time and energy.

a state might not be able to regulate companies outside the state, but couldn't the state could subpoena the companies for lists of customers which it could then prosecute?

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

Gotta love the new USSA!!!! :!:

[geeeeoffff]

hokay, here is the actual law:

http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/2.../5340-S.SL.pdf

a person may not...
Ship or transport, or cause to be shipped or transported, any tobacco product ordered or purchased by mail or through the internet to anyone in this state other than a licensed wholesaler or retailer

i don't think it's a stretch to say that buying snus is the same as causing it to be shipped

[VBSnus]

hokay, here is the actual law:

http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/billinfo/2.../5340-S.SL.pdf

a person may not...
Ship or transport, or cause to be shipped or transported, any tobacco product ordered or purchased by mail or through the internet to anyone in this state other than a licensed wholesaler or retailer

i don't think it's a stretch to say that buying snus is the same as causing it to be shipped

Yep. That's a slam dunk right there. That means you can't buy it, because purchase is 'causing' an item to be shipped. Additionally, you can't come on a forum and ask me to place the order for you, or else I'M causing it to be shipped.

You could still argue that purchase does not imply causality in a sale; the effect of a purchase is for a company to decide whether or not to honor that purchase, the effect is not shipment of an item. However, I wouldn't want to be the one in the defendant's seat on that.

[VBSnus]

Sounds like your best bet would be to find a local tobacco shop and work out a deal with them. The deal would be that they would make orders on your behalf and sell them to you with tax. Maybe you can settle on a slight markup and make it work.

[geeeeoffff]

Sounds like your best bet would be to find a local tobacco shop and work out a deal with them. The deal would be that they would make orders on your behalf and sell them to you with tax. Maybe you can settle on a slight markup and make it work.

true, but if i order from somewhere that is out of the country they won't be able to subpoena customer records from them. right?

[VBSnus]

I would think they could only do that if it was taken to the Supreme Court...if I remember right, that's the only court with the power to deal with foreign countries. I could be wrong though.