ATTN: Northerner, Buysnus, and other Swedish online stores

[Karanya]

With the PACT Act coming, I would ask that you do continue to offer United States customers the option of having snus shipped via regular mail.

There are a few LEGAL steps you can take to increase the likelihood that American snus-buyers will continue to receive their products.

First, consider shipping your products in packages that do not have the company logo. The reason for this is that if one package is opened and found to contain tobacco, then seized, customs will probably begin watching for the logo as they sort through packages. Thus more packages will also be opened and seized.

Secondly, please consider what you write in the customs declaration. Mine have always said either "snus" or "Swedish snus", which is probably fine unless the customs official has seen the ads for Camel Snus and is aware that it is tobacco. It may be wise to add some additional words -- in Swedish, not English -- to make the "snus" stand out less. For example, you could put "cans of Swedish snus" or even "cans of Swedish smokeless tobacco" as long as it wasn't written in English.

Whatever you do, please do not include the word "tobacco" in English, as this will almost certainly lead to seizure.

If you do choose to continue shipping snus via regular mail to Americans, it would be in your best interest to develop a policy as to what you will do if a shipment is seized. I believe since this is a product that is entirely legal, customs will return the package to the sender rather than destroy it.

Some companies I buy things from have the package destroyed because it is "grey market", and these companies do offer to re-ship the product at no additional cost... of course, this policy is reflected in the prices they charge and the recipient must prove it was seized by mailing or emailing a copy of the seizure letter they received.

I think it would be fine if the policy was simply that the customer knew what risk s/he was taking and while it is unfortunate that his/her package was seized, you will not replace it.

Whatever policy you choose should be clearly stated on your website, along with the disclaimer that individuals should know the rules of their specific countries before ordering and that you are not responsible if a package is seized by customs.

Thank you. Bear in mind that unless a package is clearly labeled with something like "TOBACCO!!", chances are it will go through without incident. Packages going through customs that have arrived from Europe are given very little consideration by customs. I believe that even if nothing was changed, at least 95% of the packages would go through without ever being opened for inspection.

--K

[texasmade]

I would take this into consideration. I know A LOT of sites and shops that do this and they get through almost %100 of the time.

[Liandri]

I highly doubt customs don't know about Snus/snuff. Its a form of tobacco and regardless of the name its listed in their customs code as a tobacco product. The simple fact that you've not been inspected is pure coincidence. Because it says snus, and because snus is legal now and from a reputable company with their logo, trademark, address, etc clearly listed on the package there is zero to very little need to open up every single package out there.

If the company wishes to sell a tobacco product under the new guideline and law that company must adhere 100% to the rules within the guideline. I'd rather not get it at all then resort to slimey, stupid back door politics.

@ the companies: Follow the rules, follow the law, if it doesn't work out I'm sorry to see you go or I'm sorry to see yo have to charge alot more or i'm sorry for whatever. But whatever you do, do NOT risk your ass in any which way for this.

EDIT: And before anyone gets into a big hissy fit about what I said above simply TALKING openly about this on a public forum is questionable. You are flat out attempting to give a reputable company/retailer advise on how to commit a customs fraud. All it takes is ONE TIME out of alllll the orders to shut the company down in an instant or ban/bar them from ever sending something oversea's. Nobody is going to risk that for you, or me, or anyone else.

[Karanya]

It's not fraud. If they chose to start putting "Gifts" or "Bubblegum" on the customs declaration, that would be fraud and (depending on the way Sweden handles international mail) might be at some risk. But most countries don't give a damn about outgoing mail... they're worried about what's coming INTO the country.

As for American customs, you'd be shocked if you knew how little they knew and how little they bother to enforce it. At most of the customs checkpoints for international packages (Miami is another story), they open very, very few packages, regardless of how suspicious they might appear. Not only that, but even when they do open packages, they only seize the most outlandish imports.

For example, the DEA or FDA has released a big poster stating it is illegal to purchase prescription-only medication from overseas if you buy it through the internet. You can bring some back on your person (there are limits, of course) if you actually travel to a country, but you cannot go to an online pharmacy in India and order grandma's cholesterol meds legally.

That's the rule, but not how it's actually practiced. Should customs actually open a package containing grandma's cholesterol meds, they just tape it back up and send it on to grandma's house with a note that it had been inspected.

If customs opens up a package containing a controlled substance, what they do appears to be based on whether the drug inside is on Schedule I or II (in which case it is seized and legal action against the recipient might be taken), or whether it's on the DEA's list of "Drugs of Concern". If it's neither Schedule I nor Schedule II and not on the DEA's list, they seal it up and send it on to the recipient. On the other hand, if it IS on the list but it's not Schedule I or Schedule II, they seize it, destroy it, and send the recipient a "love letter". No action is taken regardless of how many "love letters" you receive. (The love letter states what the package contains and informs you that importing this substance is against the law.) Apparently, they don't even keep a record of who they send the "love letters" to.

And here we're talking about controlled drugs, which are much less innocuous than tobacco.

I've received boatloads of packages from other countries, many of which certainly *looked* shady... things like electronics direct from China that came in a beat-up cushioned envelope marked "commercial sample" on the customs declaration. I've also received many plain brown boxes from Germany that declared the contents to be "health products". In fact, none of the packages I've had have had a logo or company name on them, and many didn't even have a return address. Yet all went straight through customs without being opened. And from the particular sellers I'm discussing, the rate of "package openings" appears to be one percent or less (this based on enormous threads about these companies on other forums.. some 65 or more pages long).

[lxskllr]

Náhtoh - Navajo for tobacco ;^)

[Roo]

Karanya I venture to guess that you're not talking about Grandma's cholesteral pills... From where do you order your snus? I'll admit for the last year or so I've pretty much stuck to getsnus as they now carry my favorite brands, but for my first 1.5 years I ordered exclusively from buysnus and I'd say 1 in 5 orders were opened by customs and stickered as such. I'm curious what others have to say who have consistantly ordered from Sweden in the past year. At any rate, it could be (I stress "could", I don't know) a matter of customs more frequently opening a package that lists the contents in a foreign language... for example, if it was my job and I saw a package that said "Swedish Snus" I might open it out of curiosity over a package that says "consumer sample". At any rate, mail me some pills, would ya? My back hurts.

[lxskllr]

I've never had a package that specifically stated it was inspected. I've had some suspicious packing jobs, which looked like they had been opened and taped, but never a customs proclamation as such. Do they always tell you when your package has been inspected?

[Roo]

I've never had a package that specifically stated it was inspected. I've had some suspicious packing jobs, which looked like they had been opened and taped, but never a customs proclamation as such. Do they always tell you when your package has been inspected?

Yeah I'd say 1 in 5 or 6 would say something like "inspected by customs" and the package would be crudely resealed with Scotch tape. It's been a while, but for a minute there it seemed like almost all of my orders where getting inspected, which also caused a good 3-4 day delay.

[Karanya]

Yes, if they're inspected, they're labeled as such. Sometimes a sticker, sometimes brightly colored tape that says something about homeland security.

I order almost exclusively from Northerner, Buysnus and Snuscentral, all of which ship out of Sweden. I've had 30 or 40 packages from them in total over the last six months or so. None opened at all. All took precisely 10 days to arrive.

1 in 5 is a very high rate for package openings... I wonder if it was during the "crackdown" on pills coming in. There was a brief period where they were opening many more packages than usual.. over the course of a few months I think.

That or it's possible that the entry point is partially determined by where the recipient lives. Although that doesn't make much sense because I'm in Texas and get packages from Germany that go through New York.. yet all the packages from Sweden (from the snus stores anyway) clearly do NOT go through New York (if they did, the ship times would be much, much longer).

That 1 in 5 figure leads me to think that Swedish packages do, in fact, go through Miami. If so.. ouch. I expect the seizure rate would be quite high. There's a fairly easy way to find out, though. I just need a Swede to send over a small box by registered mail and give me the tracking #

--K

[shikitohno]

I'm pretty sure most snus deliveries do go through New York City, Karanya. Part of your delay "caused" by a package going through NY could simply be because the shipping service it was sent by sucks. I've had snus shipped from Sweden to Maine via New York City using Swiss Post, and it takes two to three weeks. Same route via Swedish Post typically takes 8 days at most. I had a bottle of vodka ordered from London that shipped Parcel post on the same route which took six days door to door.

I lived in NY before Maine, and am back in NY now. Every single time I have ordered a product from Germany, it has taken at least 4-6 weeks to arrive. I really think German postal services just suck.

[Karanya]

That's interesting. I've been getting packages that originate in Singapore, are remailed through Germany to the US and go through New York ISC.

Watching the tracking, they get from Singapore to Germany in a few days, then from Germany to New York in 2-3 days. After that, they go through customs and to New York ISC (sorting center), where they sit for an unpredictable amount of time (usually 10-20 days). And then onwards to my mailbox.

I never used Northerner back when they had Swedish Post, but every package I've received through Swiss post from Northerner, and from Buysnus (whatever method they use) takes precisely 10 days to arrive. No idea where it's landing, though, since I don't get a tracking number. This seems more typical of something going through San Francisco, although that doesn't make much sense.

Very odd.

--K

[LaZeR]

I highly doubt customs don't know about Snus/snuff.

As long as it doesn't contain fiberglass, it's A-ok. :wink: Now if they call it "dip" or "chewing tobacco", then we are all in trouble.

[redheadedmax]

This morning the old guy at the post office commented on how I order so much "snuff". I gave him a dirty look and walked out with my packages. Maybe it's because it's a small town post office, but thinking of how he seemed to be paying attention to my deliveries kinda pissed me off.

[texasmade]

This morning the old guy at the post office commented on how I order so much "snuff". I gave him a dirty look and walked out with my packages. Maybe it's because it's a small town post office, but thinking of how he seemed to be paying attention to my deliveries kinda pissed me off.

probably jealous

[Karanya]

This morning the old guy at the post office commented on how I order so much "snuff". I gave him a dirty look and walked out with my packages. Maybe it's because it's a small town post office, but thinking of how he seemed to be paying attention to my deliveries kinda pissed me off.

I wonder sometimes what the postman thinks when he delivers my stuff. I get packages from Sweden, Germany, India, Hong Kong, China, the Ukraine, etc. on a regular basis.

I'd be a little worried but I seem to have a different postman/woman every day.

--K