Northerner complaints/issues.

[snusgetter]

UPDATE 2: There I was feeling bad for the Seneca Indians!!

NY judge extends hold on mail-order cigarette law

The Associated Press
Updated: July 07, 2010, 7:25 pm

Seneca Indian Nation cigarette sellers remain free to fulfill orders by mail in New York while a federal judge in Buffalo considers whether a law banning the practice is constitutional.

U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara on Wednesday extended until July 30 a temporary restraining order that allows 141 members of the Seneca Free Trade Association and another Seneca businessman to continue to operate without having to comply with the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking - or PACT - Act.

The law that took effect June 29 bans using the U.S. Postal Service to ship cigarettes and requires sellers to comply with states' and municipalities' varying taxing laws.

The Senecas, who dominate the national mail-order cigarette business, say the law unfairly targets nation businesses.

Sounds pretty much cut-and-dry
but politicos are big on yielding monkey-wrenches.
There should be more on this as the affected parties
weigh in with their interpretations of the ruling. If
nothing else, maybe last-minute unfinished business
will be allowed closure before the July 30 hearing.

Stay tuned ... News at 11??

[snusgetter]

UPDATE 3: There I was feeling bad for the Seneca Indians!!

Hold extended on law banning cigarettes from mail

By Dan Herbeck
News Staff Reporter
Updated: July 08, 2010, 12:57 am

U.S. District Judge Richard J. Arcara has given more than 140 Seneca Nation businesses an additional two-week reprieve from enforcement of a new federal law banning the mailing of cigarettes.

In a case in which billions of dollars of tax revenues and thousands of jobs are at stake, Arcara listened to a full day of legal debate Wednesday between attorneys for Seneca Nation cigarette sellers and lawyers for the federal government.

Late Wednesday afternoon, he reserved decision on legal questions involving the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act, commonly known as the PACT Act.

Temporary restraining orders already in effect prevent the government from enforcing the law against more than 140 businesses owned by members of the Seneca Nation. Those orders were set to expire July 16, but Arcara extended them until July 30.

Before that date, Arcara said, he hopes to rule on the Seneca businesses' request for a preliminary injunction, preventing the government from enforcing the law against the Senecas until questions about its constitutionality have been decided.

"There's no telling how he's going to rule," said Rick Jemison, a Seneca businessman who is chairman of the Seneca Free Trade Association.

Lawyers and Seneca business people packed the courtroom for Wednesday's legal arguments.
The law prevents the U.S. Postal Service from delivering commercial cigarette shipments. It also requires companies that engage in interstate cigarette sales to make sure all federal, state and local taxes are paid in the state where the purchaser lives.

But Lisa A. Coppola, an attorney for one Seneca-owned business, argued that a seller could not possibly know about every state and local cigarette tax law in every state.

"If I'm a businessman, I've got to find out what laws regulate me, … and if I don't, that's my problem," responded Gerald C. Kell, a U.S. Justice Department lawyer arguing for the law. "Don't sell into [a] state if you can't figure out how to abide by that state's laws."

Coppola also claimed that the law discriminates against Native Americans, an allegation that Kell vehemently denied.

According to government lawyers, the law was enacted to prevent underage smokers from obtaining cigarettes through the mail and to correct a situation that has cost governments billions of dollars a year in uncollected taxes.

Robert Odawi Porter, legal counsel for the Seneca Nation, sat among Seneca business owners observing the proceedings. He said he feels the new law unfairly targets Senecas.

"It seems like the government is spending an awful lot of time and energy hunting down some Indians for selling cigarettes," Porter said. "I think it is important that we try to protect Seneca people who are just trying to save their businesses."

Federal government attorneys say the law was carefully drafted to adhere to the U.S. Constitution and to avoid infringing on the sovereign rights of any Indian tribe.

And the beat goes on..

"There's no telling how he's going to rule" July 30 -- and it's still too early
to know how the two sides of this issue will interpret the new ruling.

The wrangling continues...

[f. bandersnatch]

I hope you all (on all sides) figure your shit out soon. My grandpa always used to say that "when you are up to your ass in alligators, its hard to remember that your initial goal was to drain the swamp." I feel like this pretty well sums up the Northerner's position right now. The Northerner is in a prime position to become the preeminent snus web shop in the US, but you are fooling yourself if you think that there isn't someone else out there to fill the void if they can't hold it down. I do not say any of this out of spite for the northerner, I have had satisfactory experiences with them, it's just an observation.

[jamesstew]

Still 'Pending' in my order status.

[xhepera]

I hope you all (on all sides) figure your shit out soon. My grandpa always used to say that "when you are up to your ass in alligators, its hard to remember that your initial goal was to drain the swamp." I feel like this pretty well sums up the Northerner's position right now. The Northerner is in a prime position to become the preeminent snus web shop in the US, but you are fooling yourself if you think that there isn't someone else out there to fill the void if they can't hold it down. I do not say any of this out of spite for the northerner, I have had satisfactory experiences with them, it's just an observation.

I hear ya. I'm willing to be flexible, but not flexible enough to get screwed. After screwing up my mailing address and sending me a nonsensical email about it, they ended up shorting my order due to a "computer error." No explanation as to when my order would be completed. So I email. . .no response. So I call and leave a very polite and detailed voicemail msg. . .no response. So far my inquiries have been civil and patient. When I call my credit card company, that will NOT be the case. Bottom line is. . .they have my money and I have no product or credible promise of receiving same. Unacceptable under the spoken and unspoken rules of commerce throughout the world I'd think.

[dxh]

Still 'Pending' in my order status.

Yeah...me too.
I have sent plenty of emails. Done with that. This will be my last order with them. There are other places to buy snus. Never had an online purchase go so bad.
Tried to be patient and understanding, but I have items that were ordered over a month ago that I have never received.
Best of luck to them, but I will NEVER order from them again.
If I treated my customers this way I would be out of a job.

[bosbears02]

Finally got a reply from Getsnus/Northerner from an order from 6/24. It states that my order is still pending due to out of stock items...I wish I was told this 13 days ago...
After reading some other post, I decided to place an order with Buysnus on Monday night 7/5. It has already passed Customs and is on its way to NH. I'll get it tomorrow. PACT Act my ass!

Yeah, I'm quoting myself....
My order arrived this morning @ 1000am EST from BUYSNUS. A very nice UPS guy (not as nice as Lazers) but I was happy to see him. Thanks to all of you who recommended BUYSNUS!
Mahalo!

[snusgetter]

UPDATE 4: There I was feeling bad for the Seneca Indians!!

Judge Delays Ruling on PACT Act & USPS Delivery

Publish Date: July 8, 2010

Judge Richard Arcara of the US District Court for the Western District of New York has issued a series of rulings, the effect of which is that his temporary restraining order may be extended as far out as July 30. That TRO prevents enforcement of the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking (PACT) Act as it relates to the Seneca Free Trade Association and the Seneca Smokeshop. It is expected, though, that Judge Arcara will issue a preliminary injunction ruling prior to July 30.

Last week Judge Arcara issued the initial temporary restraining order in response to a suit brought by Seneca Tobacco business owner Aaron Pierce. The judge initially said he would rule on the matter this week. Instead, the Seneca Free Trade Association was allowed to intervene and Judge Arcara extended the TRO.

In his July 2 order, Judge Arcara, in his extension decision, delayed his preliminary injunction decision and extended the temporary restraining order. Of note, Judge Arcara ruled that mailed packages must state the name and address of the sender, the sender must be a member of the Seneca Free Trade Association, and that mailings can occur only through one of three approved post offices in the Western New York Federal Judicial District.

The temporary restraining order on enforcement of the PACT Act pertains only to the Seneca plaintiffs in the case. However, it is unclear whether the government will begin enforcing the PACT Act generally or wait for the judge’s final ruling.

AWMA believes that businesses not party to the suit should still continue to consider the PACT Act ban on USPS deliveries to be effective. AWMA will advise members immediately if the Judge enters a final decision to nullify the pertinent PACT Act provisions or if the government advises it will delay enforcement.

The PACT Act officially became effective on June 29th and the provision banning the delivery of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco through the U.S. Postal Service became effective on that date as well. The intent of the PACT Act – including the USPS delivery ban – is to crack down on the illegal Internet sales of cigarettes and smokeless tobacco which costs states millions in lost revenue and allows these products to more easily end up in the hands of minors. AWMA supported enactment of the PACT Act for these reasons and because these sales were also undercutting legitimate, law-abiding distributor sales."

AWMA: American Wholesale Marketers Association

In a Nutshell:

• mailed packages must state the name and address of the sender
• the sender must be a member of the Seneca Free Trade Association
• mailings can occur only through one of three approved post offices
  in the Western New York Federal Judicial District
• restraining order on enforcement of the PACT Act pertains
  only to the Seneca plaintiffs in the case
• businesses not party to the suit should still consider the
  PACT Act ban on USPS deliveries to be effective
• expected that Judge Arcara will issue a preliminary
  injunction ruling prior to July 30

And the beat goes on as we await USPS response

[snusnoose]

My Northerner order finally went from pending to shipped Just in time, I was starting to get really annoyed with the lack of communication from customer service. I was trying to look at the Northern debacle as a life lesson - an exercise in patience.
Props to Fredrik & Rick for helping out!

[orlenz]

A Quote from Northerner website...


"Our customer satisfaction list:

- Except offering quality goods above the ordinary, most important for us is to give our customers a first class service.
- Our customers email-messages are answered in 24 hours.
- A money-back guarantee is offered to all customers if the goods or services purchased from us are not satisfactory.
- Fast-as-humanly-possible shipping to anywhere around the world. ...

What a joke, liars...


.

[tom502]

Seems once Pact hit, Northerner/Getsnus should have put up a freeze on orders, with the website saying this, and the order page unaccesable, till they got the all the tax crap done, and got restocked, and then re-open.

[jamesstew]

Mine finally shipped (partial order) but I unfortunately didn't get a tracking number and don't know which address it's shipping to. I had asked them in various emails to send it to my work to make signing for it easier.

[brent0001]

When my order finally said shipped, the tracking number came later that night in a email.(same with my second order)

[Link]

I'm going to be disapointed if/when Northerner stops screwing up my orders. I always offer to put it back in the box and ship it back, but they always decline the offer. Getsnus had me return a roll once. Hopefully the person who got that stuff got a discount. On my last order, I was shipped los instead of portions. They then sent double the amount of portions and told me to still keep the los and the extra portions.

[dxh]

I'm going to be disapointed if/when Northerner stops screwing up my orders. I always offer to put it back in the box and ship it back, but they always decline the offer. Getsnus had me return a roll once. Hopefully the person who got that stuff got a discount. On my last order, I was shipped los instead of portions. They then sent double the amount of portions and told me to still keep the los and the extra portions.

Interesting approach to getting free snus.